I don't have a resource to cite, but I recall a video interview with a then-elderly Mustang pilot who described the speed of ME262 climb and said he shot one down by out turning it and "setting up a line of 50 cal" for it to fly into. One a double ace (11.5 kills), the other a triple ace (16.25 kills). On 18 March 1945, 37 Me 262s of JG 7 intercepted a force of 1,221 bombers and 632 escorting fighters. The Messerschmitt Me 262, nicknamed Schwalbe or swallow, was a force to be reckoned with in the skies during World War II. Ziegler's book describes FW-190 had an engine as powerful as P-47 Thunderbolt but was sleeker and smaller. or was based on The Facebook Like button and social widgets are used to interact with the Facebook social networkand are provided byFacebook Ireland Ltd. The aim was to attack jets on their landing approach, when they were at their most vulnerable, travelling slowly, with flaps down and incapable of rapid acceleration. take-off. Fw-190 vs P-51. Report. Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience. but between these two planes the P-51s were ordered to make tight turns that the Me-262s could not do, I think. jets could be somewhat offset by the much tighter turning radius of the two planes,' said Jim Cook, master crew chief at the Pacific The P-51 Mustang was developed and built because there was a need for a new fighter plane during World War II. Historically, why did the US station their nuclear weapons in Germany for delivery through German pilots? "Chuck" Yeager (double ace) : Returning from an escort mission, after get. Arguably two of the finest fighters built during the course of World War II, the Me 262 and P-51 Mustang heralded new dawns in aircraft performance. The initial design of what would become the Me 262 . he took a lucky shot at them. North American NA-73 (Prototyp fr die in Serie gehende P-51 Mustang) 25. the Mustang. Thunderbolts could keep flying after sustaining damage that would've destroyed any other fighter. Around 1,200 Me-262's were destroyed, by strafing, bombing etc etc.. (Air Force af.mil)] Ah, we might as well let bygones be bygones and appreciate their beauty as historical relics. U.S. Air Force photo. The 332nds aircraft had distinctive markings that gave them the name Red Tails. U.S. Air Force photo. Both Me-262 and P-51H could only sustain their top speed for no more than 10 minutes without damaging their engines Kulp sustained severe wounds but survived. P-51 vs Bf-109 P-51 vs Bf-109 Airplanes armament and equipment 4 x 20mm long-barrel Hispano-Suiza cannons in wings, 2 x 12.7mm machine guns in nose 4 x 12.7mm machine guns in wingsP-51D: 6 x .50 cal machine guns in wings Up to 1,000 lbs (454kg) of bombs, rockets or fuel droptanks. Is there a table somewhere that lists the air-to-air Me 262 kills by Allied combat aircraft? Len Krenzler (actionart.ca) 15,000ft and headed for the attack, with my flight behind me. Rogers achieved a rare MiG-15 jet AVIATIA - Aircraft specifications and performance - comparison site. Actually, lack of trained pilots and fuel was more of a problem than airworthy Me-262s. while escorting P-51D Mustangs were poised to convert altitude to diving speed. I saw a crash and a puff of black smoke. There are several better things about P-51. Rogers achieved a rare MiG-15 jet Many escorting P-51 pilots shot down Me-262s by simply doing a Split-S maneuver Im sure that more Me 262s were shot down because the ideology was to get the Mes in landing when they were slow and did not turn well, called "rat catching". But it was very slow and fragile. 4 x 20mm long-barrel Hispano-Suiza cannons in wings. only P-51 Mustang fighter pilot to shoot down a MiG 15. 1Lt German pilots were astounded to see a P-47 continue flying after firing all their ammunition at one. Personal Data collected: Tracker; Usage Data. This was probably Leutnant Koberts There was black smoke and an explosion.. euronews (en franais) More from MotorTrend. Force Service in 1950 at the onset of the Korean Conflict. WW II has got to be the F6F as has been previously stated. Faster light-weight P-51H might have been equal of Me-262 in a straight-line race, The P-51 Mustang or the Me 262 Schwalbe? Google uses the Personal Data collected to track and examine the use of this site, compile reports on its activities and share them with other services developed by Google. An innovation it had was electrically-operated control surfaces. So 158 Me262's were shot down in the air by fighters, and of these between 60 and 74 % were P-51 Mustangs. "Mr. Yingling is a World War II veteran of the Navy and began his Air Not sure about the actual numbers, but I read Pierre Clostermann's Big Show and the RAF had a specific tactic of using Tempests to catch ME262s returning to base. The Messerschmitt Me 262 Schwalbe ("Swallow") was a German aircraft, the world's first operational jet-powered fighter aircraft. Warning: some page functionalities could not work due to your privacy choices, Google Analytics (GA4) is a web analytics service provided by Google Ireland Limited (Google). More from. I did not see the pilot bail Both planes also significantly impacted the war the P-51 helped to turn the tide in favor of the Allies, while the Me 262 was a significant threat to Allied forces. But which fighter was better? The P-51 Mustang and the Messerschmitt Me-262 were two of the most advanced fighters to see air combat in World War II. turbo-chargers muffled its engines and exhausts were placed behind pilot. VIII Fighter Command groups accumulated some impressive scores against the Messerschmitt jet fighter. Seen here minus its Junkers Jumo jet engines and surrounded by it's 30mm Mk 108 cannon shells. Me 262s vs P-51 Mustangs: rare WWII color combat footage. Is it correct to use "the" before "materials used in making buildings are"? flying 170 missions in a P-51 Mustang, a piston-engine plane in which Is a PhD visitor considered as a visiting scholar? F-82 Twin Mustang F-35 Lightning II vs F/A-18E Super Hornet, F-35 Lightning II vs F-16E Fighting Falcon BLOCK 60. The anonymization works by shortening the IP address of the Users within the borders of the member states of the European Union or other countries that are members of the Agreement on the European Economic Area. There were four For this reason, the data transferred to GA will be made anonymous through a proxy system called "My Agile Pixel" which will replace your personal data such as the IP address with anonymous data and therefore not traceable to you. Some people prefer the look of the P-51 over the Me 262. straight through the flames and scattering debris of his victim: Just as I passed him I saw a sheet of he shot down a Soviet MIG jet. The Messerschmitt Me 262 Schwalbe ("Swallow") was a German aircraft, the world's first operational jet-powered fighter . Clicking on "Accept" authorises all profiling cookies. In the Pacific the Hellcat was 19:1 and the Corsair was 11:1. The renowned fighter ace of World War II, General Adolf Galland took his first flight in a Messerschmitt Me262 in ay of 1943. Me-262's nose was packed with large cannons and machine guns for destroying bombers, Mustangs believed to have been flown by 1 Lt Edward Buddy Haydon of In the air around 100 got destroyed according to what I know, and that includes those shot down while landing taking off. Almost immediately, the pilot bailed out from about 24,500 feet. Not which aircraft was the best at shooting them down, which is statistically unprovable, as you rightly caution. 1:21. May 2003, 02:41 PM: Message edited by: CrazyD ], [ 07. To the untrained eye, both the P-51 Mustang and the Me 262 may look like WWII-era fighter planes. He is the By the east-west runway and the taxiing ship got into position for a formation The attack on the bombers was ineffective because of the prompt action of my flight in breaking up the attack.. Willard Millikan) 1944 Aluminium, Black, White, Red. A shotdown Me 262 captured by a P-51 Mustang gun camera. This commission helps us to maintain and improve the forum for the benefit of our users. Its elliptical wings made Spitfire beautiful and turn more tightly. the two planes,' said Jim Cook, master crew chief at the Pacific This is not say the Me 262 was invulnerable to enemy fighters: The Me 262 was difficult to counter because its high speed and rate of climb made it hard to intercept. May 2003, 03:33 PM: Message edited by: CrazyD ], http://forums.bfnation.net/viewtopic.php?t=9765, http://www.mysa.com/mysanantonio/links/yeager.shtml, http://www.acepilots.com/planes/p51d_mustang.html, http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p51_10.html, (You must log in or sign up to reply here. and 258th victories, but as he returned home he was apparently intercepted by Google may use your Personal Data to contextualize and personalize ads in its advertising network. I was at 17,000 feet when I broke off the encounter.. Due to his boost, renewed effort and resources were put into the Messerschmitt Me262 . Main difference was size: Spitfire small, Mustang large. explosion, and a sheet of red-orange flame shot out over an area of about Red Tails- P-51 Mustang vs Messerschmitt Me 262. Report. The other jet aircraft was about 500 yards ahead of me and had started US Air Force (af.mil): The Me 262, on the other hand, was designed as a multi-role aircraft and could be used for various tasks such as air combat, ground attack, and even intercepting flying bombs. With its external drop tanks, the P-51 can stay in the air for hours, while the Me 262 can only manage minutes without refueling. They shot down 12 bombers and one fighter for the loss of three Me 262s. The Tempest was very fast and could almost keep up with the jets on landing. document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); What are you waiting for? As you'll see in this interview, on March 24th, 1945, the Red Tails as they were called, were escorting a B-17 bomber squadron using P-51 Mustangs. film, was eventually credited with the destruction of two Me 262s. [ref: Ziegler for 515MPH]. was forced to abort. The car is only 4 mph with like-for-like gearing than the brushed setup it previously had - but the difference is whereas the brushed motor got quite hot, the brushless motor was completely cold. [ 07. JeuxVideo.com. Let's find out! 43:47. On 7 October two were shot down on takeoff by Lieutenant Urban L. Drew of the USAAF, flying a P-51 Mustang. With a passion for aviation, as well as surfing and scanning the web, Rocco is in his element analyzing aircraft data and the differences and similarities between aircraft. '", [ref: "P-51 Mustang: From 1940 to 1980" book], F-82 vs P-38 Lightning (Edgar Schmued vs Kelly Johnson), P-51 Mustang / F-82 Twin Mustang vs MiG-15 jet (?? well of course wiki is wrong there were far more than 100 262's lost, have heard estimates of over 600 Allied a/c claims which all pur B.S. Within seconds, his Me 262 began vibrating violently as the tail was buffeted back and forth. I pulled up at him in a fifteen degree climb and fired three long bursts at him from 2,000 feet at eight oclock to him. I have found twelve pairs of duplicate Werknummers, i.e. to his death. Several things make the Me 262 better than the P-51. Not sure about any others, though I would imagine the USAAF and RAF ratios in Europe were somewhat lower. Thanks for contributing an answer to History Stack Exchange! 'He Underground Messerschmitt Me 262 factory "Weingut I" [Vineyard I] Mhldorf am Inn, Germany (May 1945) PVT.Snafu. (conservapedia.com)] Some might argue that it was due to a desire for technological superiority or a need for faster aircraft. (#D144,938 in June 4, 1946). Fw-190 vs P-47 bf-109. Project P.1065. ), North American P-51H Mustang by David McLaren, Pilot Training Manual for the P-51 Mustang, video: "Eighth Air Force Fighter Combat vs ME-163 Rocket-Propelled and ME-162 Jet-Propelled Aircraft", P-51 shot down MiG-15 ?? home. - https://bit.ly/3k0SXI2Follow me on social media for updates! The Aviation Geek Club and The Aviation Geek Club logo are Dario Leone's registered marks. And finally, lets not forget about aesthetics the sleek lines and swept wings of the Me 262 are pretty distinct from the boxy shape and straight branches of the P-51. MiGs, and they were so much faster. FDCSYP Military Drills Poster P 51 Mustang Vs Messerschmitt Me 262 Fighter 11 Canvas Poster Wall Art Decor Print Picture Paintings for Living Room Bedroom Decoration 1624inch(4060cm) Brand: FDCSYP. Zero could out-turn P-51 (and everything else). But beyond its aesthetics, the P51 boasts impressive speed, a remarkable range, and an impressive armament that includes six .50 caliber machine guns. Nearly all fighters of WWII had same basic puller-propeller monoplane design Red Tails- P-51 Mustang vs Messerschmitt Me 262. Prior to engagement, Me-262s were flying ~350MPH while climbing up to US bombers's altitude, It was slower, less maneuverable from high wing-loading, had aerodynamic quirks, vicious stalling, narrow landing gear, etc. firing from about 400 yards, with 30 degrees deflection. 24 x Air-to-Air Unguided High-Explosive Rockets. [ref: video: "Eighth Air Force Fighter Combat vs ME-163 Rocket-Propelled and ME-162 Jet-Propelled Aircraft"]. Instead of going directly after them, we went away from them and then turned into their blind spots.. [ref: History Channel's "Dogfights"]. The Me 262 was nearly 100 mph faster than the P-51D, which put the Mustang at a distinct disadvantage. Hubert Lange, a Me 262 pilot, said: "the Messerschmitt Me 262's most dangerous opponent was the British Hawker Tempestextremely fast at low altitudes, highly manoeuvrable and heavily armed." Leutnant Gerhard Robert, and Oberfahnrich Heinz Russel, continued to taxi out So fast and hard to catch that the P-51 pilots were only able to follow the a/c on landing or wait in squadron strength for the sleek birds to take off..aka "Rat Catching". designed a superior twin-engine fighter. Messerschmitt Me262 A-1a/Jabo (Werknummer 170312) of I./KG 51 photographed on 27th. It would not be until Oct. 7 that a Mustang US F-51 pilots trained against US jets and mentioned that scoring a hit on a MiG-15 would be very difficult: On the 24th of that month, Brown became one of three members of the 332nd Fighter Group to be credited with shooting down a Messerschmitt Me 262 jet fighter. as within seconds, a P-51 would reach 500+MPH It depends on what youre looking for. Messerschmitt Bf 109: Country: Germany: Germany: Type of aircraft: Fighter: MR Fighter: First Flight: 1939: 1935: Introduction: 1941: 1937: Crew: 1: 1: Number built: 20000: . Whether Me-163 pilot had slowed before attacking, or if it had run out of rocket-fuel, remains a mystery. Airplanes armament and equipment. But sometimes, said 332nd pilot Roscoe Brown, we wondered if we had the support of those behind us. The AAF had plenty of officers like Col. (later, Gen.) William Spike Momyer who wrote that black pilots were inferior, and Maj. Gen. Edwin House, commander of XII Air Support Command Momyers boss who wrote, the Negro type has not the proper reflexes to make a first class fighter pilot. Other leaders expressed this view in a prewar Army report, The Use of Negro Manpower in War often quoted during Black History Month which said that black men are very low on the scale of human evolution.. v ABSTRACT The purposes of this study were to trace the evolution of the North American P-51 Mustang as an escort fighter in World War Two and to enumerate the reasons why it played . The desegregation of the armed forces in 1948 and the civil rights movement of the 1950s and 1960s gave us a new world, Brown said. This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. [ref: "P-51 Mustang: From 1940 to 1980" book], real photo of P-51 with ram-jets (but in 1946 after WWII). And the Me-262 would take advantage on their speed instead. November 1940 . intercept enemy bombers attacking oil targets. the 357th FG and ace Capt Ernest C. Feeb Fiebelkorn of the 20th FG, But each pilots skill and resolve, On each bomber crew is depending. Mustang's design was refined rather than radical, Hit by 12.7mm bullets: destroyed. Kelly Johnson drew and considered a twin-fuselage design similar to Twin Mustang, Wrote Lane: He did not quite fill my gunsight. Of actual air-to-air kills of Me 262s (not those claimed during takeoff or landing), which Allied aircraft scored the most Me 262 kills? A P-51 of 359th FG (Lt. Col. Murphy) was barely able to pursue it and hit it from 1,000 yards. (C) 4 x 20mm Hispano cannons in wings. over 500 alone are accredited to JG 7 but that is too high. The Mustang was designed in April 1940 by a team headed by James H. Kindelberger [5] of North American Aviation (NAA) in response to a requirement of . In 1944, as Allied forces began to gain ground in Europe and the war seemed nearing its end, Nazi leaders were desperate for any advantage they could get. Bf-109 vs P-47 bf-109. > Gloster Meteors of 77 Squadron RA. All quotes listed here are from the Wiki article referenced above. 3:53. I was indicating With visibility more than 100 kilometers (60 miles) Mutke easily spotted the P-51. Reich airspace, and back, for well over 1,000 miles. [ref: Wagner, McLaren]. P-51s and other prop fighters could easily outmaneuver Me-262s. The world's first operational jet fighter. This style emphasised good manoeuvrability and turning radius, which fighters such as the Spitfire, BF-109, Yak-3 etc had in spades. The shortage of drop tanks at Ramitelli forced the maintainers to get creative. Meanwhile, in the P-51, fitted with the This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. The German Luftwaffe Messerschmitt Me 262 Schwalbe (Swallow) was the first operational jet fighter and appeared in air combat towards the end of World War Two. - February 25, 2013, These are Tuskegee Airmen (left to right) 1st Lt. Roscoe C. Brown, 1st Lt. Marcellus G. Smith, and Col. Benjamin O. Davis, Ramitelli, Italy, March 1945. observed hits all over the wings and fuselage.. The Me 262 and P-51 Mustang represented the state-of-the-art in terms of design, performance and combat capability for their respective air forces. which collapsed under the P-51s machine gun fire, but it may have been Robert F. Dorr Messerschmitt Me 262, WerkNr. A quick Google, Your answer could be improved with additional supporting information. Welcome to WWII Forums! [ref: History Channel's "Dogfights", interview of Roscoe Brown and Richard Candelaria]. As you can imagine, that was a scary sight as Me 262s were kept top secret and until then not many . As a result, Me 262 pilots were relatively safe from the Allied fighters, as long as they did not allow themselves to get drawn into low-speed turning contests and saved their maneuvering for higher speeds. (Drew's assigned airplane was Detroit Miss, a P-51D-10-NA, 44-14164, marked E2 D.) Urban L. Drew joined the U.S. Army Air Corp in 1942 and trained as a P-51 fighter pilot. in two sections and the plane rolled over and went into a flat spin. Force Service in 1950 at the onset of the Korean Conflict. Worse was to come on the afternoon of Nov. April 1941: Messerschmitt Me 262 V1 Mai 1941: Horten H IV Kawasaki Ki-45 Toryu Kokusai Ki-76 Tairow Ta-3: 6. Another significant difference is that the P-51 was primarily used as a bomber escort, while the Me 262 was mainly used for air combat. The A-1A was the first model of 262 to be able to mount R4M air-to-air rockets underneath its wings. The P-51 and the Me 262 are similar in that they were both used as fighter planes during WWII. Luftwaffe airfields identified as jet bases were frequently bombed by medium bombers, and Allied fighters patrolled over the fields to attack jets trying to land On 7 October 1944, Lt. Urban Drew of the 365th Fighter Group shot down two Me 262s that were taking off, while on the same day Lt. Col. Hubert Zemke, who had transferred to the Mustang equipped 479th Fighter Group, shot down what he thought was a Bf 109, only to have his gun camera film reveal that it may have been an Me 262. because its jet engines provided far less acceleration than a propeller Drew recounted: I had started shooting from about 60 [ref: P-51 shot down MiG-15 ?? Something else entirely? Buttner successfully bailed out of his \"burning\" (according to historian Manfred Boehme) ME 262 over Kiel-Holtenau after being shot up by Mustangs, possibly the ME262 in this clip though the jet does not appear to be on fire (perhaps there was a fire in the cockpit?). None of this prevented the 332nd Fighter Group, commanded by Col. Benjamin O. Davis, from performing well on bomber escort missions and engaging the Luftwaffe the German air force in aerial combat. so Mustang would've been blown to bits! Galland was highly impressed by the aircraft's capabilities and speed and became an advocate or the aircraft's mass production. Thank you for your support! [ref: Hitlers Jet Plane by Mano Ziegler] Also Read: North American F-82 Twin Mustang. defensive tactics were applied, with very precise timing of each The P-47 Thunderbolt? The ratio's for Mustangs was ~ 10.7:1, the P-47's ~ 7.5:1 and the P-38's were ~ 2.6:1. The Me 262 was the first operational jet fighter in history. was doing around 350 mph, and the jet was doing 450. There are pros and cons to both aircraft. (arlingtoncemetry.net)] wrong, since Schmued had idea in 1940 before those were designed. @PieterGeerkens agreed, likely statisctically insignificant (it could depend on the number combinations of aircraft that actually engaged the 262, and of those numbers which percentage emerged the more victorious, but even so, these are small numbers so yeah, not much statistical significance could be attached). Messerschmitt AG Perodo de produo 1941-1945 Quantidade produzida 1430 (com os produzidos na Tchecoslovquia) Primeiro voo em 18 de abrilde 1941 (81 anos) com motor a pisto 18 de julhode 1942 (80 anos) com motor turbojato Introduzido em abrilde 1944 Aposentado em 1945, Alemanha 1951Tchecoslovquia Variantes Avia S-92 Tripulao 1 Messerschmitt Me 262 (Schwalbe / Sturmvogel) North American P-51 Mustang RoC (ft) 3,937 3,475 ARMAMENT STANDARD: 4 x 30mm MK 108 automatic cannons in nose section. Two seconds later, I saw another piece hit close to the first piece. 1,000ft.
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