Most steels use carbon to increase hardness, but 14C28N uses nitrogen, boosting hardness without the normal penalty of increased corrosion. That is professionaly popular such as the Japanese designation SKD11, Uddeholm Sverker 21, German designation 1.2379, Hitachi SLD and others. Theyre excellent for choppers, hard-use folders, and outdoor knives that see impacts and heavy use when used at medium hardness. Alloying elements are an important ingredient vital in getting the best steel for the job. Ive seen more talk and some articles regarding the use of AI to come up with new potential drug molecules, polymeric materials, etc. If the steel is overheated in austenitizing, very large reductions in toughness are possible. have extremely high edge retention. CPM 154 looking at getting a nice larger flipper for a little under 100 AUD. SUS410 This is a midprice steel with matching performance. It rusts like nothing Ive seen before and it dull just by looking at it. 14C28N VS D2 The two sheets of steel are comparable in terms of toughness and corrosion resistance. D2 steel also resists chipping better than most stainless steel types. SG2 In general, the more carbide the steel has and the larger the carbides the lower is the toughness. CPM-S90V is my favorite in the high edge retention category because of its decent toughness. (Some crazy folks clean their Swiss Army knivesin adishwasher. AEB-L and 14C28N are the best in the high toughness group. A mirror finish is the best at resisting corrosion and a rough finish means rust and corrosion is more likely. In particular, I really care about the toughness / hardness part. Many steels are very similar to one another but go by different names from different manufacturers. Low Carbon steels like AEB-L wont hold up to wood cutting even though it can hit 64 hard, it just doesnt have enough Carbon. Wusthof Classic Ikon 8-Inch Cooks Knife Review, Victorinox Fibrox Straight Edge Chefs Knife Review, What is Cts bd1 steel? Thanks for the Article Larrin, Read our full Sobata 398 review here. And for high toughness you want little or no carbide. With steels that have a small amount of carbide the size of the carbides can be kept small through processing (see the AEB-L micrograph earlier in the article). 14c28n vs. D2 Steel D2 is as rigid as 14c28n, thus has almost equal edge retention abilities. Each test is done with 3 or more specimens to get a good average. Where the black-finished 1.4116 version has a simple, full flat grind, the D2 version has a compound flat grind that ends halfway up the blade's height. Also how did you arrive at the edge retention & toughness numbers for 8cr13mov and for BD1N toughness? Steels that can be high in edge retention and toughness are desirable for general use knives. However, even steel with the best corrosion resistance can rust without proper care. The only thing putting me off immediately buying the p135 is the 14c28n steel. I know that one does not normally make knife blades of titanium, but I gather that Ti is extremely corrosion resistant, used for saltwater applications, etc. D2 has a relatively high amount of carbon in its composition (1.55%), more than twice as much as AEB-L (0.68%), but most of that carbon goes into making chromium carbides instead of into solution in the steel matrix, leaving D2 with only ~0.5% C in solution and very large carbides that are good for wear resistance but bad for toughness. D2 is another medium-range tool steel. D2 steel is high carbon steel with no extra addition of Cr or Mo, that's why it is prone to corrosion. It richly deserves its reputation for high-quality gained over the years by Sandvik, a Swedish manufacturer of world-renowned steel. High Alloy Tool Steel and High Speed Steel Ratings. This is a non-powder steel produced by American steel company Carpenter. 0.62% of Carbon: Makes knives harder and more resistant. Other factors include how thick your edge is, how dull your knife was at the start, the nature of the heat treatment, and what youre using to sharpen your knife. Thats why it easy to work and looks nice. High alloy tool steels are designed to be air hardening, so they can be cooled even slower than the oil hardening steels found above. If you would like to change your settings or withdraw consent at any time, the link to do so is in our privacy policy accessible from our home page.. Like 154CM, there is a newer version, S35VN, which shares many of the same attributes as S30V but is easier to craft into a knife thanks to niobium. Its high hardness and relatively high toughness also make it an excellent choice in cutlery. High toughness steels can be produced without powder metallurgy and also have low wear resistance for lower manufacturing costs. CPM 3V It had better than expected corrosion resistance due to the lack of chromium carbides, a behavior also seen in MagnaCut. It's like the difference between average 420HC and Buck's 420HC with the Bos heat treatment, only from a better starting point. Both knives were chopped through a nail. Its hard enough, tough enough, and stain-resistant enough. . Contact me if you have any questions or input! Privacy Policy. Its found on a large number of traditional-style folders. I guess the question is whether toughness increases faster than edge retention decreases. S45VN 52100 and CruForgeV are good for general purpose knives. While quite soft, the metal cuts even when it seems dull because, at the microscopic level, it has a roughness that performs much like a serration. I especially appreciate the geometry/edge retention/toughness comparison with photos. The main downside is the steel is more difficult to heat treat and cant go harder than about 60 or perhaps 61 Rc. 8Cr13MoV is comparable to the Japanese AUS-8 but containing slightly higher carbon content. If I made some plane irons from AEB-L at 63 Rc (where its still tougher than 1095 at 59-60 Rc, the standard vintage steel in plane irons), could I drop my sharpening angle from 30-35 to 25? Most of these steels are carbon steels, except for CPM MagnaCut (the fancy steel cooked up specifically for knives by Dr. Thomas), which has excellent corrosion resistance. This is to keep the focus on the elements that are making the biggest difference. Can you contact me via my email address so I can send you a copy in PDF and epub. It shows 3 stainless steels from 750-800tcc but the edge retention graph only has 1 SS in that range, S90v. With recommended hardness range of 55-62 HRC; the 14C28N is great for knife applications which place very high demands on edge sharpness, edge stability and corrosion resistance such as chefs knives, hunting knife, pocket knives and fishing knives. We did the research to help you find the best hunting knife for your needs and budget. The pictures below show the microstructures of the three classes of stainless steel on the market. 2. Wear resistance, be it high or low, is the most significant determining factor in ease of sharpening. Below shows Vanax tempered at 400F on the left and 1000F on the right after 1% saltwater for 24 hours: There are many other ways in which knife steel performance can be reduced through heat treatment but I cant cover them all in this article so hopefully these illustrative examples will be enough. To choose the best knife for you between the 14C28N and the D2, look at the steel properties and ensure that they suit your knife needs and lifestyle. rust resistance.Best of all most knives made from this steel can be had for well under $75.In my opinion Sandvik 14c28n is a better overall steel than that of Aus8,420hc,or ANY of the . as you mentioned catra indicates the edge angle as being by far the most important variable. The most significant cost increase comes from powder metallurgy, used to create most of the expensive knife steels. Toughness is the resistance to chipping or breaking. They differ little in composition and treatment. As wear resistance is increased the differences between conventional and powder metallurgy steels become greater. Its an update of its 12C27 and 13C26 steels, which were developed for use in shaving razors. Where did it come from? But to learn more about these and other attributes, read our related outdoor knife buyers guide. 3) catra is (as far as i know) the only accredited (iso/en) testing method. Must-Have Bowie Knives for Your Collection, What is Micarta and What Makes It a Great Knife Handle, Top 8 Reasons Why Knives Make the Best Gifts, Pocket Clips: Carry Safely and Comfortably, Make a Knife Your Own with Accessories & Customization. Or is this an argument that tends to be rooted more in the presumption that Japanese steel > Chinese steel than any practical difference in reality? Anyway, astute comment, but edge retention does mean a lot in woodworking. 14C28N vs D2: Overview 14C28N steel is a high-end stainless steel created by the Swedish company Sandvik. just recently the idea occured tome to sharpen a planer blade like a knife and check out how it performs. The blackwashed D2 steel blade of the Kershaw Cannonball offers pretty good corrosion resistance for D2. 14C28N and D2 steel are not the same. I was recommended the Rat 1 in D2 and I also found that I really like the design of the Ruike p135 and p128. When it comes to handle material, both knives have options available in either plastic or metal. There are also hardness/toughness and hardness/TCC charts.but no tables backing this charts. Hello everyone I've been loking into twosun knives recently. Here is the article by Larrin on 48 steels. It should get an ultra-sharp edge for easy cutting, hold the edge for long for easy maintenance, and have a sturdy and ergonomic handle for comfort and to prevent accidents. Its very corrosion-resistant and quite tough. Thanks to Bill Smutz, Alex Topfer, Florian Bachler, Brunhard, Art, Rod H, Sach, Jinny Koh, Jon Duda, Cory Henderson, and UPKnife for becoming Knife Steeel Nerds Patreon supporters! Then we could say, e.g. The critical difference between these two sheets of steel is their corrosion resistance. Old time 8670, 5160 (known to ignoramuses as 51shitty) and 52100 are excellent choices and arguably better choices than 80crv2. (I think the 420HC estimate in that post was based on simulation or computer modeling, since you didnt spray testing any of the 400 series.) But as the market has grown and newer steels have come out, it has fallen in price and prestige. To reiterate the clearer part, I wonder if toughness increases faster than edge retention decreases as an edge gets thicker. Time and use have proven this to be quite accurate. Spyderco has their own salt spray test setup to determine the corrosion resistance and they determined that MagnaCut is sufficiently corrosion resistant for their salt series of knives. Some of these steels also have vanadium (CruForgeV) or tungsten (Blue Super, V-Toku2, 1.2519) for increased wear resistance. Top quality steel yields perfect toughness, edge retention, wear and corrosion resistance, an easy to sharpen, long lasting and durable everyday carry that will fast become a user favorite. For example, D2 has enough chromium to be stainless (~12%) but its high carbon means that too much chromium carbide is formed to leave enough chromium for stainless levels of corrosion resistance. Non-stainless steels can be heat treated to 66 Rc or even higher depending on the particular steel. This does not predict which knife will cut longer or be more resistant to chipping. You cannot leave your 14C28N knives in water overnight and expect them not to rust. I personally don`t care about stainless (sic! In many cases, the D2 edge sharpness may last a bit longer. A good quality knife must have sharpness, great edge retention, and a sturdy handle. In fact, its not technically a steel at all, as it uses titanium and nickel. By rejecting non-essential cookies, Reddit may still use certain cookies to ensure the proper functionality of our platform. There are still a few things I dont know but we have enough information to make educated guesses where data isnt available. Most of the midrage ifferings have 14c28n, how does it compare to d2 in your experience? H1 You also reported 8.6 for 440A in that post, compared to 8.5 in this post. Thats a tiny difference, but in combination with the 420HC disparity, it conceals a full point difference between 420HC and 440A: 7.6 vs. 8.6. at least it has some vanadium over the 420hc. 14C28N. Because of its abrasion-eating hardness, knives with REX 121 come at an exceptionally high price. But its very cheap, and, when ground appropriately, it can be a real winner from a value standpoint. And before you start arguing on behalf of the steel you think might be perfect, let me remind you that if your knife isnt perfect for a task, youll need to get another one that is! In that case the difficulty in sharpening would be the inverse of the edge retention rating. Extra kudos for your mathmatical steel composition to edge holding model thats really impressive work. Even metallurgists can have a difficult time estimating properties just based on the elements. 14c28n is the most popular material for the knife: stainless steel and made by the Swedish company. So we get back to my original question: if a D2 planer blade at 58 Rc and the associated level of toughness will perform acceptably with a 30 sharpening angle, is there some way to extrapolate at what sharpening angle another steel with higher toughness might perform equally well? Corrosion is not only cosmetic. Other factors that can be added in are corrosion resistance, hardness, and cost. The steel is susceptible to overheating during hardening do not overheat. Corrosion Resistance: D2 steel has a higher chromium content than 8Cr13MoV, which makes it better at resisting corrosion and wear. Jeff I worked at a company that heat treated D2 (1.55% C) planer blades for a company that built wood working equipment for commercial shops. 7:00am-5:00pm, 10am-7pm Tuesday - Friday third and most important is what happened to the burr. 440A . I wont go into detail about those here. Heres a brief description of their impact on the resulting steels properties. Conventionally produced steels include AEB-L, A2, 52100, 12C27, 14C28N, and AUS-8/,8Cr13MoV. Pretty interesting that regrinding a knife you already have can seemingly take its performance to that of significantly better steels. there seems to be an optimal procedure for every alloy (provided its heat treated to industial standards). 14c28n steel and D2 steel are both high-quality knife steels. Spyderco is the only production company using this steel, though Michael Gavik of Gavko knives produced a number of customs in LC 200N. And while it can be hard depending on the heat treat, I have found it easily chips, causing microscopic dings in the edge when hardened to a high level on a thin blade. This is a virtually stain-proof steel suitable for all sorts of aquatic environments. Both of those things are no longer an issue as I now have way too many articles and a book. The unique process used to make LC 200N results in a fine-grain structure. Because of the material difference, the blades differ in toughness, edge retention, corrosion resistance, and ease of sharpening. Below are some great ways to make your knife your own. If youre having trouble finding the steel you want, see if another manufacturer makes something much like it. CROMOVA Steels with only vanadium carbides have the best balance of properties because the hardness of carbide matters for edge retention but doesnt for toughness. . Question. However, it can be somewhat complicated because an edge can dull from many causes wear, micro-chipping, deformation, or corrosion. In many cases the cost of working with the steel for the knife companies is more significant than the cost of the steel itself. All three of these steels havechromium, molybdenum, vanadium, and tungsten components and will perform well in myriad tasks. Dr. Thomas is a friend of ours here at Blade HQ, and with his help, weve worked to create this knife steel guide. Reddit and its partners use cookies and similar technologies to provide you with a better experience. This is also a powder-metal steel produced by American steel company Crucible. https://knifesteelnerds.com/2018/12/10/cryogenic-processing-of-steel-part-2/ Water is a severe quenchant that can often lead to warping or cracking. Steels that are higher in hardness and wear resistance are usually lower in toughness. Therefore I will be showing the ratings of the steels graphically in terms of toughness-edge retention balance, where steels that are high and to the right have the best combination, and you choose the steel based on the level of toughness or edge retention necessary for the knife. Steel ratings are not about ranking steels in terms of what is better than another, but understanding the different balances such as toughness vs edge retention. S90V Could you please compare it to Shirogami #1 and Agomi #1, I didnt find anything in terms of grain size ragarding thoese steels on the Internert. There are significant differences between them because 14C28N is stainless steel, while D2 steel is a semi-stainless tool steel. Combination of knife steel properties. Check out theGiantMouse Vox/Anso ACE Iona Liner Lock Knife at $99, for example. It does have chromium but is not as sufficient as required to be a type of stainless steel. In all of the cases above, properties are greatly controlled by carbides. Diving into the pool of knife personalization possibilities is a fantastic way to fend off the post-knife-buy blues. Would love to see where S7 sits on the Corrosion/Edge/Toughness meter. Five years ago, S30V had a premium price. Read more. Let the job at hand be your guide. Also Mo additions improve corrosion resistance for a given amount of chromium. These properties make steel a good choice for making kitchen, fishing, and everyday knives. Nitro V is also significantly cheaper than many other steels with this level of performance. 14C28N and D2 steel are not the same. H1 and 420 also have excellent corrosion resistance but are limited to lower hardness and edge retention. In my experience, it will tarnish and discolor quickly. However, in our testing there is a reduction in toughness by using the high temperature range rather than the low temperature range, such as was found with CPM-CruWear (Z-Wear) or CPM-10V. So setting edge geometry for the type of knife and intended use is very important. Marco, BSc Chem. Like 154CM, its a good compromise between all three steel attributes. 14c28n vs. AUS-8 Steel Read more. In a pocket knife the total amount of steel is rather small. Hi Larrin Your estimate of 420HCs corrosion resistance is different here than in your October, 2019 post on corrosion resistance testing: https://knifesteelnerds.com/2019/10/14/corrosion-resistance-testing/ MagnaCut has the lowest chromium of any of the below steels but all of its chromium is in solution (no chromium carbide) and the fact that it has no chromium carbide also gives it the maximum level of corrosion resistance for a given amount of chromium. Steels high in toughness are excellent for knives likely to see hard impacts, like large chopping knives. Toughness is a measure of how much resistance a steel has to fracturing. Thanks again for everything you're doing, it's a tremendous resource. [Steel Knife Review], What is 14c28n steel? Chris Reeves version, which is about two points less hard than others, is quite good. I can also say from personal experience that marine grade plywood will chaw up your saw blade and battery a lot quicker than standard plywood, but that probably says more about the glue that was used than the wood. Despite its wonderful performance, XHP is actually not terribly expensive compared to other high-end, all-around performers. https://www.patreon.com/Knifesteelnerds, Click to share on Twitter (Opens in new window), Click to share on Facebook (Opens in new window). 1095 Also, if you want a fishing knife, 14c28n steel will survive better in wet areas than D2. My name is Jonathan M, and Im a passionate Mechanical Engineer, a knife enthusiast, and the author of this website. Another important caveat before we get to the ratings are that these are for the steel only. Three main characteristics differentiate steels from one another: corrosion resistance, hardness, and toughness. Most vintage tool blades seem to have been made of 1084/1095 or similar, presumably at some <60 Rc hardness that gave the required toughness, and the rules of thumb for sharpening angles are based on those assumptions. If you have a favorite steel, rock on! One important concept I want to hammer home is that there isnt one property that is most important. 14c28n steel has a high Chromium and Carbon percentage. However, Kershaw asked Sandvik to make their 13C26 steel more resistant to corrosion, and the result was 14C28N. worldwide, even the chinese have an equivalent (8cr13mov). A Japanese powder steel, ZDP-189 is essentially the polar opposite of 3V its uber-hard instead of uber-tough. This isnt exactly how steel works; different properties are difficult to increase without affecting something else. It is certainly possible for a knifemaker or heat treating company to do a heat treatment that will have suboptimal properties. What carbon/tool steel would you choose for a survival knife if a PM steel was too expensive? Another is that 8Cr13MoV is a generic name for a specific composition while AUS-8 is a name of a product by a specific company. 14c28n is the most popular material for the knife: stainless steel and made by the Swedish company. Id like to quote some of your toughness, edge retention and corrosion resistance for balanced midfield steels, including yours, in some data tables. Or even if they try to be more open to importance of toughness, the good reputation of the high edge retention steels means that they get inflated toughness ratings along with it. Its hard to say. D2 steel does not contain enough chromium to make it stainless steel. worldwide, even the chinese have an equivalent (8cr13mov). Because of its difficulty in sharpening and machining, its very rarely used and comes with a high price premium. But which? Hi Larrin Youve occasionally mentioned cryo treatment in your posts, including here with LC200N. I also added a few more steels in this study. It is an excellent steel that in the right hands has proven to produce high performing blades. 1% saltwater will separate between other stainless steels. . The consent submitted will only be used for data processing originating from this website. Different companies can vary some between each other making the same product, while a single company is going to be more consistent. 14C28N is thus ideal for use in corrosive environments and challenging applications. Alpha Knife Supply sells 26C3 btw. You need a hard medium to sharpen it like diamond or boride. AEB-L is a non-powder steel produced by Swedish steelmaker Uddeholm. Im writing a book about choosing a knife for EDC. It's more often pitted against the VG10 since both are widely popular high-carbon stainless steel grades. It has excellent edge retention, corrosion resistance, and ease of sharpening. It applies to both of course, hence why there isnt a separate label. INFI is also quite hard and sharpens easily. D2 is a high carbon, high chromium die steel and is the highest carbon alloy tool and die steel typically used in knife making. 440C steel Another common heat treating choice that is not even categorized as a mistake is tempering in the high temperature regime (~1000F) rather than the low temperature regime (~400F). This is a bit of a guess because I cant find un-notched Charpy data on it. Goes to show that science not marketing or conjecture is what determines a good steel, 51shitty? Notice that with the same edges on the same media, the 9Cr18Mov from Real Steel performs about as well as the average Chinese D2. also the angle is by far the most important factor in catra testing, so such results might be irrelevant. Therefore you will use it for a long time without requiring frequent sharpening. Is 440A really that much better than 420HC, or have you found a narrower gap? my understanding is that wood is not a particularly abrasive material and a plane is more of a push cut action than a slicing action so I would have though edge stability and sharpness is more important than edge retention meaning ABE-L should work pretty well. I think you wrote an article a bit ago on CTS-XHP and concluded that like D2 and ZDP-189 it wasnt really stainless (although stainless is a somewhat arbitrary line). 420 Simple, non-stainless steels of medium carbon content like 5160 also boast high toughness. 14C28N Below shows approximate maximum hardness vs stainless rating for several stainless knife steels. Steels with very high vanadium content like Vanadis 8, CPM-10V, K390, CPM-15V, etc. For example, Bohler M390, CTS-204P, and CPM-20CV are all nearly identical and indistinguishable in practice. This is a major tradeoff between improved cutting ability and edge retention with an acute angle vs a strong and chip resistant edge with an obtuse angle. However, it falls behind the Bohler steel in corrosion resistance. Its a costly and challenging process, but it makes extremely fine-grained steels, some of the best for knives, and makes some processes that were previously impossible a reality. All of the experiments shown below are possible thanks to supporters. 14C28N Leek: D2 Leek: jonnymac44 Joined Sep 27, 2007 Messages 7,674 Oct 21, 2008 #2 Hey Michael, First off, the new 14C28N from Sandvik is just now hitting the streets, and I don't have any results just yet for you. 8670 and 5160 are good choices for large knives that need very high toughness. Most of the discussion of how the ratings were generated, various caveats and details, etc. Steels 7Cr and below arent worth your time or money. Thank you. Here its 8. In addition, According to Sandvik, 14C28N steel is easy to work on, reducing production costs and hence affordable knives. I would suggest adding a second axis to the ratings charts that show the data values that the 0-10 ratings are based on (unnotched charpy impact energy, 1% saltwater , Total cards cut, etc.). Its not a regression line, it is just a line through the best steels. However, to choose the best knife for you must consider all the properties, including toughness, edge retention, corrosion resistance, and ease of sharpening. 14C28N is stainless steel, and its knives offer excellent rust resistance and toughness than D2 steel. Im a woodworker and Im interested in making better performing plane irons and chisels. It also tops out around 60-61 Rc like LC200N and needs relatively careful heat treating to even be that hard. I see tables that compare Toughness,Edge Retention,Corrosion Resistance. You cant look at only the chromium content of the steel to know the level of corrosion resistance. Approximately the same hardness, yes. However, Kershaw asked Sandvik to make their 13C26 steel more resistant to corrosion, and the result was 14C28N. and get better and longer-lasting performance? Steel with high wear resistance is more costly to manufacture, as the knife company goes through more abrasives to grind the knives. But the true calling card of INFI is its insane toughness. Theyll be fully attributed to you with website and Patreon links, obviously. 1095. I guess that was before I started reading. Does that mean that companies like Tops, Kabar and ESEE would be better off using 420HC instead of 1095 on their fixed blades? 14C28N vs. D2. 14c28n vs D2 Steel. I was struggling to simplify all the Rockwell/Youngs Modulus stuff for readers when I came across your site. Thats a pretty large difference in two budget steels that are often compared to each other. CPM-REX 121 and Maxamet are both in this category. But its lightyears ahead of the alternatives, specifically titanium-bladed knives. It boasts an incredible ability to continue cutting long after it seems dull. And its not made of steel. Some steels are cooked up specifically with this in mind and are very difficult to make rust. Sorry about the misinformation. This is the steel used in Swiss Army knives and is excellent for beginner sharpeners. This makes for a great slicing knife and a perfect steel, in my opinion, for a regular-use, everyday-carry folder. edge retention can vary by several orders of magnitude depending on what happens to the burr. Everyone has their own opinion on what they deem the best folding EDC knife. These steels favor edge retention over all else. G10 Generally seen as a slight upgrade to the 440C/VG-10/ATS-34 caliber of steel, its a decent all-around steel with good corrosion resistance, decent toughness, and only modest hardness. Less expensive, conventionally produced steels include VG-10, D2, 154CM, N690, and 440C. Fine-carbide knife steels. The choice between the two depends on your knife needs. its like with cars, most of them are not a corvette or a porsche. They tend to be relatively expensive and difficult to sharpen, as they have high wear resistance. 14C28N is the highest-selling steel of Sandvik, a Swedish steel company. So, its hard steel is easy to sharpen. Carbon steels are those that have primarily carbon added to them with some Mn or Si as well. This is one of the better steels on the market. The hardness of the carbides does not matter much unlike with edge retention. Hammering through hickory, digging at roots in sandy soil, and cutting around bone did nothing to chip, dent, or roll the edge of my 3V knives. The highest edge retention steel was Rex 121 which was at 70 Rc in combination with lots of high hardness vanadium carbides.
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